Brokered Cds Vs. Bank Direct Cds

chrisoffice
  |     |   21 posts since 2018

The brokered CDs generally have higher rate than the bank direct CDs, for example, vanguard and fidelity currently have 4.5% 5-year brokered CDs. But The ONLY way to withdraw early the brokered CDs is to sell them at the secondary market, which is not liquid at all, i.e., may NOT be able to sell them. If the rate goes up significantly like the 70s, the 5 year CD can go up to 6.5% or even higher. If we can not sell the brokered CDs in the secondary market, then we get stuck with 4.5% for 5 years. I would rather pay 365 days EWP to go for the higher rate. I guess that's one of the serious disadvantages of the brokered CD in comparing to the bank direct CDs. Any thought, anyone?



Answers
MAKNYC
  |     |   323 posts since 2015
My two cents…but probably worth only one. I have never sold a brokered CD, so no firsthand experience, but I would’ve assumed the process was simple, liquid and economical. There is no issue as to credit quality so it’s pure and simple math, with an intermediary in the middle admittedly trying to pad their pockets. But I would take some issue with your leaning towards direct CD’s vs. brokered. Using your example of a 5 year 4.5% CD with a 365 day EWP, liquidating early means a 4.5% hit to principal, so selling @ 95.5 (I trade a lot of bonds). To assess we need to make many assumptions, but that’s a huge hit to principal on such a short duration piece of paper. Under most normal cycles, including those encompassing rising rates that type of move wouldn’t be expected. Admittedly the current cycle with the previous huge increases is a notable exception in that the increases were fast and furious. But back to the assumptions…depending on when you face the decision to liquidate, you likely don’t have 5 years remaining on the CD. Perhaps it’s now a 3 year note, or a 4 year note? Given the typical term structure of interest rate, even now, shorter duration paper would be expected to yield less than longer term paper. So at that potential point of sale the 3 year is a tad more valuable with its current, albeit lower than market, coupon because there are less years remaining. Additionally, one must recognize that by doing the transaction you describe you are extending your duration. Using my fact pattern you held the original CD for 2 years, then transitioned to a new 5 year. So that’s 7 years worth of holding. Again, under traditional term structure you would expect to earn more by locking up money for longer.

The current situation we face is a bit atypical. And decisions might be different because of it. But unless you were unfortunate enough to have bought a CD early this year in which case the decision to liquidate is likely simple, at current interest rate levels it becomes more of a play on your assumptions going forward as the economics of prematurely closing a CD are typically onerous. Even if your 6.5% prediction possibility happens it matters just as much as to when it happens. If it happens next month then the direct CD might’ve been the better bet, but if it’s in 2 years I suspect the brokered CD results in a better outcome…again admitting I am assuming a liquid and cheap market to sell into.  And as you state you were also earning a higher coupon on the brokered CD while you held it, so further compensation to mitigate potential sale inefficiencies.

And as a side note, I will eat my soiled shorts if US rates get to 6.5%!  I would love for it to happen.  But no one who borrows/pays interest is situated to be able to pay it.  Not consumers, not homeowners, not corporations, and not Uncle Sam.  We’re likely within mere weeks/months of something catastrophic breaking….it always does.  It’s actually starting already (and that’s with what would have been traditionally described as an ultra accommodative policy as rates are STILL considerably below the rate of inflation)
lou
  |     |   1,004 posts since 2010
MAKNYC, here's the thing, most of these brokered CDs are for small amounts from relatively small institutions that rarely trade. It's a question of liquidity, and there's very little for these brokered CDs on the secondary market. Many corporate bonds are also illiquid. On Fidelity you can easily see when the last time the CD traded and if there is a dealer willing to buy the CD, including the bid price. For most of the CDs there are no buyers. It's called depth of market where you can view the market depth of the security. Many people are assuming these CDs can be easily sold but since they have never done it, they really don't know.
chrisoffice
  |     |   21 posts since 2018
Thank you for the detailed analysis, MAKNYC! I agree with most part, except that as "lou" pointed out, brokered CDs are highly illiquid, indeed one need to assume that they are not tradable.

Of course nobody has crystal balls to know how high the fed funds rate will go, I personally think the terminal rate will be north of 5%, the rate has to be higher than the core inflation in order to fight the inflation. So if the overnight rate is 5%+, the 5 year CD rate can very well be 6.5%+. As you discussed in detail, depends on how high the rate goes and lots of other variables, whether it is economical to break and move to a higher rate CD remains the question. Now, if the rate goes down, one still need to pay EWP to break the CD if he/she needs the money earlier for some reason. But for treasuries, one can easily sell them at a PROFIT instead of paying the penalty. So again, whether the 0.5% interest difference is worthwhile.

Let's add in the corporate bonds. A JP Morgan Chase bond matures on 10/01/2027, exactly 5 years from today, traded at around 5.8%. Much more liquid than the brokered CD, but less liquid than the treasuries. I highly doubt that JP Morgan Chase bond will default in 5 years. It is the largest US bank by asset size, if it goes bankrupt, FDIC will probably goes bankrupt as well, maybe the uncle Sam as well.

Now, here comes the multiple choice question, which of the following 4 investment vehicles will you buy and why, everyone who read this post please voice your opinion. All these 4 investment vehicles are available to purchase today.
A. 5 year treasury @ 4%, highly liquid
B. 5 year bank direct CD @ 4.25%, with 365 day EWP.
C. 5 year brokered CD @ 4.5%, illiquid
D. 5 year JP Morgan Chase bond @ 5.8%, moderate liquidity.
lou
  |     |   1,004 posts since 2010
What is the coupon rate of the JP Morgan Chase bond?
chrisoffice
  |     |   21 posts since 2018
CUSIP 46625HNJ5, coupon rate 4.25%. I just checked, between the bid/ask price, you can probably buy it at around $94, for a rate around 5.7%, not 5.8% as I said in my earlier post.

Everyone who read this post, please vote your choice and explain the reasoning.
sams1985
  |     |   781 posts since 2022
In your example the bank direct CD is calculating interest using APY (so 4.25 compounded monthly would actually be 4.17 APR) , where as the brokered is APR. Is the Jp morgan chase bond callable? (last time i looked, it seemed like all the corporate bonds were callable). Unless it's non-callable, I would stick with C- I still believe it would cost less to get out of this option (assuming CD rates dont sky rocket.
chrisoffice
  |     |   21 posts since 2018
NO, that bond is call PROTECTED! Now what's your choice?
sams1985
  |     |   781 posts since 2022
JP Chase bond - no brainer. If that bank fails so does the entire financial system.
lou
  |     |   1,004 posts since 2010
Here's the problem with the JP Morgan CD: I have to wait 5 years to realize the difference in the coupon rate of 4.25% and the yield of 5.7%. That's too long a period. Much more interested in current yield than overall yield. Now if it was a 2-yr CD, I might be willing to wait.
chrisoffice
  |     |   21 posts since 2018
JP Morgan is NOT a CD, it is a bond. Bond is NOT CD, bond is not FDIC insured, you seem to confuse bond with CD in your other replies as well! Bond is NOT CD, period!

AND YOU GOT IT REVERSED! When one pay $94 to buy that bond, he/she realizes the difference between the YTM 5.7% and coupon rate 4.25% RIGHT AWAY, that's why he/she is only paying $94, not the par value $100. The gains are FRONT LOADED! Probably you never bought any bonds before, that's why the confusion.
lou
  |     |   1,004 posts since 2010
I meant bond.

On your second point, you are wrong. When you pay $94 to buy a bond you don't realize the entire difference until the bonds mature and you receive all the bond proceeds at a par value of $100. The only thing that happens when you pay $94 for the bond is that it increases your current yield from 4.25% to 4.46%.

I have bought many bonds over the years.
chrisoffice
  |     |   21 posts since 2018
I still don't get your point.

So the current yield for choice A is 4%. choice B is 4.25%, choice C is 4.5%, choice D is 4.46% (if you calculated correctly, I did not double check). Same 5 year term, the choice D is still almost the highest (0.04% difference from choice C IF you calculated correctly), why "Here's the problem"?
lou
  |     |   1,004 posts since 2010
At this point, I don't like any of your choices. I would wait for higher yields which is what I am now doing.

If I had to make a choice now, I would try to find a 4.25% direct CD with a 6-month EWP. Don't know if that exists, however. I would like to see the coupon rate and yield for JP Morgan Chase 3-yr bond. I might be willing to wait 3 yrs as opposed to 5 yrs for the additional yield over the coupon rate.
sams1985
  |     |   781 posts since 2022
This is a fair point and for someone like me looking for a fixed income asset , really defeats the purpose. Now if the coupon was 5ish I would take it. You won’t realize the par value until 5 years later.l regardless of the discount. 
chrisoffice
  |     |   21 posts since 2018
5 year treasury is at 4% right now, 4.5% for brokered CD, both will tank if rates go up. But the treasuries are highly liquid, the bid/ask spread is very small, you can sell treasuries anytime you want. So the question is whether this 0.5% difference in exchange for the liquidity is worthwhile.
w00d00w
  |     |   360 posts since 2012
i agree. to characterize the brokered CD as illiquid, however, seems inaccurate, from my perspective. i have asked for bids on brokered CDs when no selling price was listed and sold them in the past. the spread will be wider compared with treasuries, but they can be sold if investor is willing to accept the broker offer. so when liquidating, it mostly comes down to comparing EWP of direct CD vs. (purchase price-sale price) of brokered CD. could estimate current sale price of brokered CD by looking at "published" bid prices of similar CDs. overall though, i think it's best to consider brokered CD as a hold to maturity investment.
lou
  |     |   1,004 posts since 2010
Not at Fidelity. Unless their depth of book includes a dealer willing to buy the CD, the trading desk will not look for a willing buyer at any price.
MAKNYC
  |     |   323 posts since 2015
Lou I’m very surprised by this. I assumed the process of selling a CD @ Fidelity would be akin to selling a municipal. All electronic, seeking bids from multiple sources and providing a relatively efficient exit opportunity. When I click the Sell link for my Fidelity CD’s there is a Request Bids option.  Your statement clearly flies in the face of my assumptions. You actually tried to do this and that was the outcome?
lou
  |     |   1,004 posts since 2010
Yes, I use to have a corporate bond portfolio at Fidelity. Unless there was a dealer listed in their depth of book with a bid price and minimum quantity they would buy, it was impossible to sell the bond. This happened to me a couple of times. I even had the Fidelity rep check with the trading desk and that was what I was told,
lou
  |     |   1,004 posts since 2010
Where is this request bids option at Fidelity? Do you mean the depth of book where they show the bids they have (if any) for the CD? If there are no bids or bids for dollar amounts equal to your CD, there will be no way to sell the CD.
MAKNYC
  |     |   323 posts since 2015
That appears to not be true. For my CD’s at Fidelity, when I click on them from the positions page I am provided both buy and sell buttons. When I click on Sell I am provided any currently available bid prices and quantities and the ability to transact at that price. On my CD’s that don’t have a firm bid available I am provided an option in the “Action” window to Request Bids….just like other fixed income (primarily munis) that I have sold at Fidelity. On its face it appears to be exactly the same, with the qualification that I haven’t formalized requesting a CD bid.
lou
  |     |   1,004 posts since 2010
Since I currently don't own any bonds at Fidelity, I don't have the option to click on a sell button. I can, however, go look at any bids that are currently listed for the bonds. This Action window must be a relatively new feature. Just out of curiosity, why don't you click on it and see if you get any bids in sufficient quantity to sell the bonds. Also tell us what the spread is between the bid and ask.
chrisoffice
  |     |   21 posts since 2018
I think the broker does not have incentive to maintain a secondary CD market. Most CD investors are for low risk. They tend to buy the CD and then forget about it. If one buys a 5 year CD couple of months ago for 3.2% rate. Now a 5 year term CD is at 4.2%, then the CD he/she just bought a couple of months ago ONLY is roughly worth $95. If you bought a $100k five year CD couple months ago, now you lose $5000. Every time you log into your brokerage account, it tells you in big red number you lose $5000. Most people do not realize the CDs are just FDIC insured bonds with a certain coupon rate. In a tradable market, the price for this special bond can go up or down. Therefore, in my opinion, in the rate rising environment, the brokerage simply does not have the incentive to maintain a secondary CD market.
w00d00w
  |     |   360 posts since 2012
i can't agree with this conclusion. the brokerage does collect fees when its' customers transact brokered CDs, regardless of what direction interest rates are headed. on the whole, the dealer pockets some portion of the bid-ask spread. evidently, those collected monies are sufficient to maintain a secondary market.

here's another article comparing direct vs. brokered CDs that might be of interest:
https://www.bankrate.com/banking/cds/what-are-brokered-cds/
sams1985
  |     |   781 posts since 2022
Lou- This isnt true. I tested this out yesterday and did a request bid option on my capital one 5 year 4.3% i purchased last week. I got 37 bids and they were sorted to highest bidder in just 30 minutes. I was just testing it and was under no obligation to accept the bid.

The highest bid was still below par @ 98.99. Still, it's inaccurate to say that one is stuck when buying a brokered CD. In fact, i would even argue that the EWP when factored in, could potentially be much more than selling a brokered CD on the secondary market. I am seeing 365 days of interest+ on many of these 5 year CDs. Using 100k at 4% as an example that would come out to $4,000 penalty to get out of a bank cd with a 1 year EWP. If the same CD was brokered, the broker would have to offer $96 or less per unit which is highly unlikely unless you've locked in a super low rate and rates do sky rocket.
chrisoffice
  |     |   21 posts since 2018
The brokered capital one CDs are more liquid, so is the morgan stanley one. It is easy to find out, just look at the depth of the book at Fidelity website. There are many brokered CDs that do NOT have ask or bid information, most of them are from small FIs. In your example, you bought it at 4.3%, now the rate is 4.5%, 0.2% difference time 5 years = 1%, the value of your CD is $99. So the $98.99 highest bid is very close to the true value of your CD, which means this CD is liquid.

Now, if someone bought the same capital one CD several months earlier, at 3.5% coupon rate, now this CD is worth roughly $95. If this person sells this CD now, he/she will lose MORE THAN the 365 day EWP (3.5%), and he/she is lucky because this brokered CD is liquid.
chrisoffice
  |     |   21 posts since 2018
BTW, I have never bought any brokered CD before, so I don't have the following information. When you logged into your brokerage account, does it tell you in big red number that you are losing 1% of whatever amount you bought your CD for? For example, $1,000 if you bought 100K of the CD. This may turn people off, because most people will not believe that the CDs will lose money, LOL! That's the reason I think the broker do not have incentive to maintain a secondary market, it will scare people off. And they will NOT be able to sell as much new issued CDs.
sams1985
  |     |   781 posts since 2022
Yeah, my account balance dropped yesterday but i already knew that would happened. The actual principle obviously will not change if held t o maturity. I have been told that a lot of people freak out. As of today i am actually down $1,500.
chrisoffice
  |     |   21 posts since 2018
OK, so the brokers do display mark to market (MTM) profit/loss info for the brokered CDs, just like for the stocks. This way, lots of novice CD investors will be scared away, nobody would expect CDs to lose value. The bank direct CDs do not have a market to trade, so the par value does not fluctuate. It's like someone buys the treasury through treasury direct, versus buying them through the broker.
lou
  |     |   1,004 posts since 2010
Totally agree with chrisoffice. I would never buy a long-term direct bank or credit union CD if I didn't know if I could get out of it early. I generally don't want the EWP to go more than 6 months however. If for some reason rates go to 6% or above, I definitely want to be able to withdraw the proceeds of the CD. There's a good chance you will be stuck with the brokered CD until maturity.


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