Rate Leaders In 1Yr, 2Yr, 3Yr, 4Yr & 5Yr New Issue, Non-Callable Brokered Cds As Of 9-22-2022

RichardW
  |     |   210 posts since 2019

Here are the rates of the Capital One Bank new issue, non-callable brokered CDs offered today (9-22-2022) at Fidelity: 5yr @ 4.30%, 4yr @ 4.25% and 1yr @ 4.05%. The rates of the American Express new issue, non-callable brokered CDs offered today at Fidelity are 3yr @ 4.30% and 2yr @ 4.20%.




rockies
  |     |   201 posts since 2018
@RichardW
Just a quick note to thank you for your posts. You have a real talent around succinct, relevant and data driven content. I really appreciate and look forward to your insights.

And, with regard to the content of your post, the CD ladder one could create earlier today from the Fidelity brokered CD's you listed here is the strongest and most comprehensive ladder from short to long term maturities that I have seen in years.

P.S. IMO, the breadth and quality of the brokered CD portfolio from Fidelity this week has been far better than Vanguard's.  I get the impression that Vanguard got caught sleeping by brokered CD demand this week.
RichardW
  |     |   210 posts since 2019
rockies…Thanks! During this period of inflation, I have only one wish. And it has nothing to do with the interest rates of direct CDs, brokered CDs, or Treasuries. My only wish is that you will continue to be rewarded with lollipops at your local brick and mortar Wells Fargo branch!
RichardW
  |     |   210 posts since 2019
To DA readers who may have missed rockies’ enjoyable lollipop post from last month, here is a link to view it: https://www.depositaccounts.com/banks/wells-fargo-bank.html#promo48922
rockies
  |     |   201 posts since 2018
@RichardW
You are very kind. Thank you. As we navigate tumultuous times, I wish all of DA Nation the simple pleasures of life....especially with the colors, scents, decorations and festivals of fall approaching. In the end, the blessings of each day are all that really matter.
fred_b
  |     |   71 posts since 2022
Wow, I'm feeling pretty stupid now for opening a 2YR at 3.50% with Bread at the beginning of August!

I took the EWP on a CD at Penfed because the Penfed EWP doesn't eat into your principal.  No such luck at Bread Financial, so I will have to be satisfied with 3.5% APY on a 2YR CD there.  I was kind of starved for income so I jumped too early on that one.
GH1
  |     |   659 posts since 2017
i was thinking the same thing. Want to know how long people are really locking up for. I think by Jan rates will slow down. But in the meantime what is average for most. Afraid to go more than a year a moment
hank
  |     |   110 posts since 2016
Fred, I have made similar "stupid" moves. I jumped at what looked like great rates until they didnt shortly after I bought them
lou
  |     |   907 posts since 2010
The problem with brokered CDs are twofold: The first is you can only get $250,000 of insurance from each financial institution. So if you have $500,000 to invest, you need at least 2 different banks to invest in to be fully insured. The second problem is these brokered CD's are not very liquid, meaning they would be difficult to sell before the maturity date. There are huge gaps between the bid and ask price, meaning you would take a serious discount if you tried to sell. It's also likely if you have over $50,000 CD, the secondary market might not be sufficiently liquid to sell your CD. I checked the secondary market CDs at Fidelity and this looks to be a real problem. If rates are close, direct CDs with 6 months or less interest penalties are still preferable in my opinion.
GH1
  |     |   659 posts since 2017
Plus the ability to not break it if you want to without losing money. Granted if you know you will not need in 5 years is great. But knowing you can break at regular bank has some value to it. Even if penalty
sams1985
  |     |   155 posts since 2022
Vanguard is showing the same 5 year CD from Capital One at 4.3%
RichardW
  |     |   210 posts since 2019
Discover Bank replaces Capital One Bank as the new rate leader in 4-year new issue, non-callable brokered CDs offered today (9-23-2022) at Vanguard. Their rate is 4.30%. Incidentally, that is 1.15% higher than their current 4-year direct CD rate of 3.15%.
sams1985
  |     |   155 posts since 2022
If a buy a Capital one brokered CD for 250K from Vanguard and then another 250k from Fidelity - Do i still have 250 in FDIC coverage? Or does it become 500k?
lou
  |     |   907 posts since 2010
You only have $250,000 in coverage. The second CD would be uninsured.
RichardW
  |     |   210 posts since 2019
sams1985…It’s interesting that your specific question involves the financial institution Capital One. A special caveat exists regarding Capital One. "Capital One Natl Assn VA" (FDIC certificate #: 4297) is considered a different FDIC registered bank than the somewhat similarly named FDIC registered bank "Capital One Bk USA Natl Assn" (FDIC certificate #: 33954). Because of this unusual situation, you could therefore purchase $250,000 of "Capital One Natl Assn VA" brokered CDs from Vanguard, and also $250,000 of "Capital One Bk USA Natl Assn" brokered CDs from Fidelity and have $500,000 in FDIC coverage (assuming you don’t have additional Capital One deposit accounts at other financial institutions or other brokerages). As of today, of the two Capital One financial institutions, only "Capital One Natl Assn VA" (FDIC certificate #: 4297) is offering the rate leading CDs at Vanguard and Fidelity. Therefore, the answer provided earlier by DA reader “lou” is correct. However, be on the lookout, "Capital One Bk USA Natl Assn" (FDIC certificate #: 33954) may enter the CD game shortly. A situation back in July this year, when both Capital One banks were offering CDs, did influence the FDIC insurance limits of another DA reader, “ChrisinFla.”
sams1985
  |     |   155 posts since 2022
Great observation! Going off this information and correct me if i'm wrong - i could potentially purchase 500k of each CD from the two Capital One Banks and still be covered because each of my brokerage accounts are jointly owned. I was told by both Fidelity and Vanguard that FDIC coverage would be $500k for joint accounts if buying a CD.
RichardW
  |     |   210 posts since 2019
sams1985…I do not have a joint account at Fidelity or Vanguard, so I don’t know if their joint accounts do provide the $500k FDIC coverage regarding brokered CD purchases which you mention. Perhaps other DA readers with joint brokerage accounts at Fidelity and Vanguard have knowledge regarding this topic. You may wish to post this as a question on the DA “Ask the Community” forum.

Also, you may have misinterpreted my previous post. Currently "Capital One Bk USA Natl Assn" (FDIC certificate #: 33954) does not offer any new issue, non-callable brokered CDs at Vanguard or Fidelity. So, currently you can’t purchase any "Capital One Bk USA Natl Assn" new issue, non-callable brokered CDs at Vanguard or Fidelity. They might offer some in the future, but when is unknown. It could be weeks, months, or maybe longer. Also, if they are offered in the future, the interest rates and terms of the "Capital One Bk USA Natl Assn" new issue, non-callable brokered CDs may be different than those of the "Capital One Natl Assn VA" new issue, non-callable brokered CDs.
sams1985
  |     |   155 posts since 2022
@RichardW

Looks like they'll be closing this loophole- message from Fidelity this morning:


Sent: 09/30/2022 11:41 AM

Warning Effective October 1, Capital One Bank (USA), N.A. (FDIC certificate number 33954), is merging with Capital One Bank, N.A. (FDIC certificate number 4297). The combined issuer will be known as Capital One Bank, N.A., and will retain FDIC certificate number 4297. Current holders of brokered deposits of the two issuing banks are grandfathered with FDIC coverage, according to current account-level coverage limits. Additional purchases of Capital One CDs (including Capital One Bank [USA], N.A., FDIC certificate number 33954 in the secondary market), when combined with current holdings in either bank, may be covered only up to the current account-level coverage limits.
RichardW
  |     |   210 posts since 2019
sams1985...Thanks for the feedback!
NYCDoug
  |     |   228 posts since 2011
I see the same 5yr @ 4.30% non-callable CD from CapOne (VA) brokered through TD Ameritrade. Did a little spreadsheet noodling, and, for comparison's sake, wanted to share that the equivalent bank CD yield (for 5 years) seems to be a compounded yearly rate of approximately 3.972% APY.

So a straight-up 4% yield from a bank would beat the non-compounding brokered CD, at least in dollar terms. Unless, of course, you are able to put each dollop of  semi-annual interest spun off from the brokered CD into an even higher yielding vehicle. [For four+ years, running.]
fred_b
  |     |   71 posts since 2022
I think you meant 3.972% APR rather than APY. APY already accounts for compound interest. The brokered CD is simple interest so it's APR = APY.

Am I wrong?
sams1985
  |     |   155 posts since 2022
Am i just financially illiterate ? So if i bought 100k of that CapOne Cd 5 year @ 4.3% - Would I not receive two annual payments of $4,300? (assuming i wanted interest disbursed)
fred_b
  |     |   71 posts since 2022
sams1985 you are right and what you said is consistent with what I said.
alan1
  |     |   742 posts since 2015
sams1985 -- You may simply be mathematically challenged. If you bought a $100000 5-year certificate at 4.3%, you would receive $4300 per annum in interest. You would not receive two annual payments of $4300. If you held the CD to maturity, and it paid interest semi-annually, I believe you would receive ten semi-annual payments of $2150. (But I too am arithmetically challenged, so please do not rely on my computations.)

If such a CD is purchased at a brokerage, the above would be true whether or not you "wanted interest disbursed". The interest would be paid periodically, regardless of your wants.
sams1985
  |     |   155 posts since 2022
It appears I am mathematically challenged - I meant to say two annual payments totaling $4,300*.
fred_b
  |     |   71 posts since 2022
sams1985 and alan1 ... I apologize I need to read more carefully. OK it's a 5 year CD at 4.3% paying simple interest. So you would get $4300 per annum. If the payment schedule is semi annual, you would get $2150 every 6 months. If it's quarterly, you would get $1075 every 3 months.
w00d00w
  |     |   68 posts since 2012
if concerned about being unable to reinvest brokered CD interest at a favorable rate, could consider brokered CD in secondary market that has very low APR, but sold at substantial discount to par
lou
  |     |   907 posts since 2010
Would that give you phantom income every year for which you would owe taxes?
w00d00w
  |     |   68 posts since 2012
sounds right. perhaps best to purchase the type of CD I mentioned in a tax-deferred brokerage account
RichardW
  |     |   210 posts since 2019
NYCDoug…Thank you for the information you provided about your spreadsheet calculations. When you were creating your spreadsheet, what did you do with the 5 years of semiannual interest payments generated by the 5-year @ 4.30% non-callable CD? Did you place all ten of those interest payments in an account yielding 0.00%? If so, do you think that is a practical yield, considering the current yields available in liquid accounts during our present rising rate environment?
NYCDoug
  |     |   228 posts since 2011
Mea culpa, Richard! Yes, I confess, I single-mindedly and simple-mindedly totaled the interest spun off by both CDs — brokered, and non-brokered — in aggregate, without calculating the possibility of reinvesting the non-compounded, semi-annual CD's interest. [Though I did make mention of it]

The math stands, in a purely abstract sense. And would hold in the real world, were the interest on the brokered CD spent as soon as received every six months. (Or, yes, reinvested at 0%). So let it be said that the "advantages" of a non-callable brokered CD are at least two-fold:

To be able to receive interest (albeit non-compounded) "as you go" . . . with the option of

a) spending it, without incurring any EWP, as would be the case with a standard bank/credit union certificate, or

b) reinvesting it, if only in an interest-bearing Savings account, for an enhanced return.

The variables involved in the second option are too numerous for my narrow mind to enumerate. But with some more spreadsheet noodling, I did determine that, for a 4.30% APR brokered (non-compounding) CD to beat the compound return of a 4.30% APY bank CD, each semi-annual proceed from the brokered CD would need to be aggregated into — and remain in, for the remainder of the 5-year term — an account earning close to 4%. (That's as close as I could get).

So, yes, for argument's sake, in a rising-rate environment, where APRs & APYs continue to escalate over the next five years, the brokered CD is indeed a shoe-in. Whether those rates take a dive somewhere, midway, is unknown, however, but also a possibility.

Given all the unknowns, my preference is to go with something comparatively more in my control — a guaranteed APY through a bank / credit union, rather than a brokered CD (albeit non-callable). And, of course, ladder multiple CDs, to hedge those bets . . .

Thank you for calling out my fuzzy logic, Richard, and bringing it to our attention!
NYCDoug
  |     |   228 posts since 2011
Another point to consider, as a potential disadvantage, is the caveat that the value of your brokered CD fluctuates daily as you hold it, depending on demand in the secondary market. This is in response to comparative/competitive offerings, and the ever-shifting interest rate environment.

Which is to say that, during the course of your investment period, the value of your brokered CD may both increase, and decrease. Be sure to note that you are guaranteed to get back your initially invested principal only if you hold it to full maturity.

As an example, I am currently invested in a 5-year brokered CD (through TD) with Comenity. It matures next year, and has been dutifully spinning out its promised 3.35% APR each month (in approximate twelfths). For the past several years it was so "desirable" on the secondary market that its value, recorded daily online (by TD) soared over $10k beyond my initial $250k investment.

In our present environment, however, with rate leaders described herein that are now 4% and above, this CD's value, as of today, is at a loss of $1,785.65; instead of $100, its current par is $99.2857. My plan, however, is to hold it until full maturity next year, and then reclaim the full value I originally invested (albeit with less buying power, due to inflation).

Just be cautioned to expect unpredictable fluctuation$, so they don't catch you unawares, and unnerve you. If you're super savvy, somewhere during the course of your brokered CD holding, you might even have reason to sell early, generating a tax loss. (Or, alternatively, a taxable gain.)
lou
  |     |   907 posts since 2010
Your numbers must be wrong. Assuming a 4.2% yield for 1-yr CDs today and your CD has one more year before it matures, your CD would have to sell for $79.761905 to give the buyer an equivalent 4.2% yield for the remaining year. You would lose over $50,000 if you sold it now.
w00d00w
  |     |   68 posts since 2012
lou, perhaps you could explain how you arrived at a selling price of $79.76 for a 3.35% certificate due to mature in one year, giving the buyer 4.2%. the discount below par looks way too steep to me for an investment that close to maturity.
NYCDoug
  |     |   228 posts since 2011
I just read the numbers each day off my TD webpage.
[That's TD Ameritrade, not Treasury Direct; sorry for any confusion.]

This morning, my 3.35% brokered CD, maturing in a year (9/26/23), reads as it did last night: Price $99.2857 | Mkt Value $248,214.35 | Gain –1,785.65 . . .  – .71%

Go figure!
sams1985
  |     |   155 posts since 2022
My $250k purchase of the capital one 5 year non callable @ 4.3 % i bought this week is already showing a market value of $248,557 -last price $99.423. Thoughts?
lou
  |     |   907 posts since 2010
sams1985, that's the profit the dealer is making from buying your CD
lou
  |     |   907 posts since 2010
NYDoug, Is this the ask or bid price? Also, is it showing there is a dealer willing to buy the CD. At Fidelity, you can see the bid and ask quantity for the CD, which will tell you if there is sufficient liquidity to sell the CD.

Disregard my previous comment. My math was wrong in determining the discount.
NYCDoug
  |     |   228 posts since 2011
Lou, I've no way of knowing if it's "ask" or "bid." It's simply what TD Ameritrade lists as the current account value . . . which they update only once per day. Each morning (or close of business) when I check, there's another surprise: sometimes up, sometimes down.

It's not really relevant for me, since I'll be holding until maturity. But it is certainly an intriguing bellwether — a barometer, or sign of the (volatile) times . . . and shifting winds.

But it does unsettle my "net worth" calculation each time I factor it in — not quite knowing whether to take it at face value . . .
RichardW
  |     |   210 posts since 2019
NYCDoug…The price listed for brokered CDs in my Fidelity account portfolio is a Third Party price. It is neither the Bid price or the Ask price. For my CDs, the Third Party price is typically somewhere between the Bid and the Ask price. Perhaps TD Ameritrade utilizes a similar technique for listing the prices of the brokered CDs in your account portfolio.
lou
  |     |   907 posts since 2010
Yeah, but is that the price for the entire CD or only some portion of it, meaning if you were going to sell it today would there be a willing buyer to purchase the entire CD at that price. Fidelity actually shows those numbers to you before you sell. Many times the asking price is only for an amount far less than the total amount of the CD. When was the last time that particular CD (Cusip #) actually traded.
lou
  |     |   907 posts since 2010
NYCDoug, it doesn't matter what Ameritrade lists as the value of your CD if they don't have a willing buyer for your CD. They should show you that amount under the ask price in the CD listing.
RichardW
  |     |   210 posts since 2019
As of 9-27-2022, Morgan Stanley Private Bank is the new rate leader in new issue, non-callable brokered CDs offered at Fidelity and Vanguard for the following terms: 2yr (@ 4.35%), 18mo (@ 4.20%), and 1yr (@ 4.10%).
GH1
  |     |   659 posts since 2017
I pulled a 9 month 4 percent from Wells Fargo last night on fidelity. It sold fast as it disappeared today


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