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My Experience Closing a WaMu/Chase CD and Tips on Redeeming CDs


My 5% WaMu CD matured last week, and I was able to close the CD by calling when it matured and instructing the CSR to transfer the money into my Chase checking account. My WaMu CD was converted to a Chase CD at end if July so the Chase CSR was able to access it. I called in the morning, and when I logged into my Chase checking account in the early afternoon, the CD money was available in the checking. I then logged into my Ally Bank account, and initiated an ACH transfer to withdraw the money from the Chase checking account. The money was deposited into my Ally savings account on the next day.

Don't forget that no interest will be be paid during the grace period after the Chase CD matures if you redeem the CD. So if you plan on closing the CD, it's best to close it on the day it matures. The grace period is 10 days after the CD matures. If you don't close the CD during the grace period, the CD will automatically renew for the same term at the standard interest rate (which is likely to be very low). This information was included in the letter that Chase sent to me a few weeks before the maturity date.

I'm going to miss that 5% CD. I certainly didn't think interest rates would be this low when I opened that 5% CD last year.

Checking or Savings Account with a CD

Having a checking account or a savings account at the institution where you have a CD can make it much easier to close a CD. In addition to Chase, I've been able to transfer the CD into my liquid account by a phone call at several banks and credit unions. Some even allow you to request the transfer online. Without the Chase checking account, I could have requested that they mail me the check which would have meant many days of zero interest and the worry of the check being lost in the mail. Also, I could have gone to a Chase branch and requested a check.

Convenience of ACH Transfers

Once the CD funds are moved into your checking account, you can then write a check for another CD. However, I've found it very convenient to use my Ally Bank savings account to pull the funds via an ACH transfer. This also works well when you have CDs at credit unions since you always have to maintain a savings account to retain your membership. When the CD matures, you can instruct the credit union to transfer the funds into your credit union savings account. Once it's in the savings account, you can use your online bank to transfer out the funds.

The only issue that I had with this method was at Navy FCU which does not allow ACH debits from its savings account. I had to open its money market account which allows ACH debits. So it's a good idea to do a test ACH withdrawal before the CD matures.

Ally Bank works well for ACH transfers. It has five important attributes:
  • Transfers are free. Some banks charge for each transfer (or outbound transfer). Bank of America is an example of a bank that charges for outbound transfers
  • Allows you to link external accounts online via trial deposits. Some online banks require you to mail in voided checks.
  • No limit on the number of links to external accounts. Some only allow one link. ING Direct only allows 3.
  • Allows large transfers. Some banks have limits as small as $2,000.
  • Transfers are fast with little or no lost interest. In my case with Ally Bank, my transfer was completed in only one business day.
So if you're opening CDs at many banks and credit unions, a good transfer hub account like at Ally Bank can be very useful. ETrade Bank's online transfer service also works well as a transfer hub account, but now with its Complete Savings account paying so little interest, it has lost some of its appeal. Any good transfer hub accounts that you use?

Refer to my weekly rate summary for the best nationwide savings accounts. In this list I include links to reviews with info on the banks' ACH transfer services.

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Comments
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #1
Thanks for the info. I have two of those 5% CD's maturing within the next 30 days. Nice to be able to call and have the funds deposited into a DDA. Bank of America, however, required a visit to a branch to take down a CD. A real pain.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #2
This works great except if one tries a ACH transfer on Thursday or Friday. Initiated on a Thursday funds will not be "available" until Monday at the earliest in the Ally account. It will show up as a deposit but it's not really there until confirmation of the ACH has occurred. Thus, do your ACH transfers on Mon, Tue, or Wed.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #3
I opened my WaMU CD at a branch. The information I received is that if I go to a branch when it matures and transfer the funds to my checking account, the funds will be available immediately. However, if I close the CD and transfer the funds to checking over the phone, the funds won't be available until the next day. My CD matures the first week of November, and the conversion from WaMU to Chase in my state will take place at least a week before that, so whether things will change I don't know, but I do plan on visiting a branch.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #4
My WAMU 5%CD matures Oct. 9 which is before the Chase Conversion in Arizona is complete.
There are no WAMU branches in Tucson so I can't walk in to a Chase branch and get anything done about it.
As already said, must call WAMU and hope for them to transfer my proceeds into existing WAMU checking for immediate ACH out to external bank.
They have already warned me the funds may not actually be available for several days after maturity.
BTW, Shore Bank in Chicago is great about creating external ACH links with very minimal restrictions.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #5
FYI if your CD is 50k or over they will make you close it in the branch.
Tsunami Cid
Tsunami Cid (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #6
Not that it matters in the slightest to Chase, but think how much money they'll be losing over the next two months, when all these 5% CDs mature and no one renews them.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #7
Has anyone been able to not go to a branch for an amount over 50k? Otherwise, I would have a 200+ mile drive to the nearest Chase branch on 9/28.
Political news
Political news (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #8
went to branches to transfer cd proceeds to checking. they have plenty chase banks in ny. put proceeds in Nara bank cd which allowed add ons 3 per cent which was opened in March. also opened another installment savings 5 year at Newbank in queens ny.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #9
I've been using GMAC/Ally to make ACH withdraws from my Navy Fed checking account for over 2 years. I don't see why you'd have an issue yourself
pfstock
pfstock (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #10
Just curious, but what would the new interest rate be if you didn't take your money out of the original 5% CD?
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #11
It would be .25% if you have a 12 month CD. You would have to inquire about the 13 month non-special CD rate. The "special" rate is 1.25% so you would get worse than that.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #12
I just received my CD renewal notice. It states that the grace period is 7 days.
john
john (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #13
As I reported before on this subject - you have 35 days prior to the maturity date to call in your request for options at maturity. My cd was over 50k and I called a month before it was due to instruct to have it transferred to my wamu checking account. On the maturity date - it was transferred. I was kinda surprised with how well it went.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #14
I opened my 5% CD on line and was so glad to find out I could pick up a check at my local WaMu bank. I picked it up on the day of maturity and took it right over to Bank 1440. Without losing any days of interest my 1st 25K will be making 5.01% and the remaining amount will be earning 2% (optimum checking).
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #15
Glad you had such an easy time.
We did not.
We had 3 CD's, with a bank that was taken over by Bank of America.
The CD's were transferred to a bank in Texas, and the B of A branch here (in CAlif.) could not even access it, let alone cash it out.
We had to call Texas, and have them MAIL a check to CA.
Needless to say, we will NEVER do business with B of A.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #16
I also have Ally, but now that the rate is so low, I’ve been using my Darby Direct (still at 2.25%) which also has the same ACH features as Ally that were mentioned in this post. I recently opened a SFGI (also 2.25%) and the ACH seems to be ok with that account. Unlimited external accounts, no limits or fees, and one or two days for funds to transfer. Any one of these three accounts can be used as my ‘hub’ depending on which has the higher rate at the time.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #17
FWF has turned the Ally ACH transfer into art. For transferring into Ally from other banks: Do it on Thursday (immediate) to get the double dip. For transfer out of Ally into other banks: Do it on weekdays (Mon - Thurs) as scheduled (next day) transfer, loss of interest for one day.
Ace
Ace (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #18
If you transfer the mature CD over phone, the fund will be credited to your checking account. But it will become available the next day.

But if you go to a branch and do the transfer, the fund becomes available immediately.

I tried both.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #19
For anyone who closed an online WaMu CD in branch: Was the branch that you used a converted WaMu branch, a Chase (not previously WaMu) branch, or an unconverted branch (still on WaMu computer systems, irrelevant branding)?

Thanks
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #20
I have 2 WAMU CD's (each over 50K) coming due in Sept., and I called to set up the maturity instructions. CSR stated that I must call on day of maturity or later to do this. I do not have any Chase or WAMU branches in my state. WAMU CD's were initiated via online with ACH.
I certainly don't want to drive 250 miles each way to close out the CD's. I'll try calling again.
John's comment at 6:30 must be incorrect?
scott
scott (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #21
My first 5% CD matured 8/27, Was for $99,500. Called on the 27th and money was transfered to my Chase/WaMu within an hour of my call, An hour later I had the funds in a new Citi CD
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #22
I've found Citi to be an excellent transfer hub account. Especially for those still with Bank of America, as it offers both next day push & pulls.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #23
ok for those with 50k or over, my acct was at wamu although it now says chase on my atm card. i had to go to the branch to close it out. the other option via their horrible cust service in india is that you can close your account via a notarized letter. for those who dont have a branch near, call now and find out becasue you will need to get the noratized letter during the grace period or you will have some major headaches. good riddance to wamu! what a mess of a bank.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #24
hi,

I don't have checking at WaMu any more. It was closed many months ago due to inactivity.

Should I open free or etc checking account before my CD will mature to transfer CD to WaMu / Chase checking to ACH to another Bank / CU later?

Can CD be ACH directly to another bank?

thanks.
Doug
Doug (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #25
Any issues with visiting a Chase branch on a Saturday to close the CD?
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #26
You cannot do an ACH directly from the CD. Without a Chase or WaMu checking/savings acct, your only options are having a check mailed or getting the proceeds in person at a branch.
john
john (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #27
I called the customer service number and spoke with a csr with the "chicago team" 31 days before my cd maturity date and instructed her to transfer the full amount of the cd at maturity to my wamu savings account. On the maturity date after the last interest payment was added , the full amount was automatically transferred. I did not have to do anything else. I did check my account online to be sure it was done. I did this about 5 weeks ago.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #28
john, it looks like you lucked out because i their cust svc is giving different information to everyone. they were very specific that the call center does not have authority to do anything with amounts over 50k.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #29
According to Wamu/Chase the 5% CDs cannot be closed over the phone. Nor can you ask, over the phone, that the CD not be renewed.

According to the representative, the only options for not renewing one of these CDs are (1)going to a branch on or within seven days _after_ the maturity date; or (2) mailing a letter to their bank-by-mail post office box in Texas.

The CSR refused to help us despite the fact that the maturity notice we received stated that one could close the CD by calling either the branch or an 800 number.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #30
I have several 5% Wamu CD's maturing within the next month.

I actually got a call from Chase trying to set me up an appointment with a VP at my branch to discuss my options after I closed the first one.

OK I know bank VP's are a dime a dozen. The point is that Chase does seem concerned about losing all these deposits.

I was delighted to get the call ... because it was so much fun to tell them all the money was going to another financial institution and that I had no interest in talking to their VP.
scott
scott (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #31
Then you need to keep calling until you get someone that knows that CD can be closed over the phone and transfered into your Chase/WaMu checking account, No matter the amount. I called 1-800-935-9935, Was quickly transfered to a specialist who could do. Whole process took less than 5 minutes
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #32
I was able to close my CD that matured August 28th over the phone. I do not have any other savings or checking accounts with Chase so they said that they will mail a check to me. The CSR said that it could take TEN BUSINESS days for me to get my check! Sounds like they are trying to hold on to some no interest money for a little longer.

I did try calling Chase a couple of weeks before my CD matured to let them know that I did not want to renew it and to send a check to me when it matured. The CSR said that I cannot give my instructions in advance, but that I had to wait until the actual day of maturity. Then I would have 10 days to give them my request before it automatically renewed. After reading many posts on this site stating that they were able to give the instructions to close their accounts in advance, I called and talked with another CSR. I received the same answer, that is, that they would not do anything until my CD actually matured. I will have to call again tomorrow to close my second CD.

I do not plan on opening any CD's with Chase because they seemed quite difficult to talk with and it is somewhat of a hassle to close a CD. Other banks are much more accommodating.
scott
scott (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #33
So whats the big deal of just waiting till the maturity date to close? I almost prefer that because even if I gave prior instructions I would verify with them on the day of maturity it was done. Also as soon as you open a CD you should plan on how to get the money out, Which is why I opened the free checking
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #34
please dont be excited that the VP called you. Wwhen I went in to close the account they ushered their 'finacial advisor' person over to try to see what rates i was getting with other banks on their cd's. Then, when they could not come close to other banks rates, they tried to push me into Government and Corporate Bonds LOLLLL. They make you go in the branch so they can sell you. Their current rates suck.

Also for the people who were successful in closing the CD on the phone, remember, its a problem only if you have over 50,000 that they wont close it over the phone.
john
john (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #35
My cd was WELL over 50k and I did everything by phone. The only reason I did do the transfer by phone was because I called the customer service number about 5 weeks before the cd was due to find out what exactly I had to do to close the cd when it did mature - write a letter? , have it notarized?,drive 2000 miles to visit my branch office?, submit 4 forms of i.d.?. I was told at that time by a phone csr that I could call in my instructions in a few days _ that would put the timeline within 35 days prior to maturity . I did call back and instructed the csr to transfer the amount of the matured cd to my wamu savings account - which I can transfer online to my wamu checking account. I have another cd at another institution maturing in a month or so - I hope things go well with those guys. ????
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #36
I just called twice (2 different reps) and both said I cannot give advance instructions by phone; they will be glad to transfer into checking when it matures, but I must call ON or AFTER maturity date for this to occur.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #37
looks like it depends which CSR you speak with. everyone has a different answer. but trust me, i followed their letter instructions and called when they said to call and guess what?! on the day it matured they said i must go in the branch. my branch is 5 miles away but still its a pain. i am so gla d they are GONE!
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #38
re: 2:24 PM, September 01, 2009

Once again, POST the amount of your CD. There is uncertainly because the amounts involved. Its been said many times over 50k cannot be closed by phone.
Doug
Doug (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #39
I think it also depends on whether you talk to a WaMu CSR or a Chase CSR.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #40
The CSR we spoke to insisted that one cannot close any CD, regardless of amount, over the phone. Their decision not to help us came before we provided them with account information. Thus the $50K distinction was irrelevant.
scott
scott (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #41
My WaMu CD's and checking account migrated to Chase last month, Made a point of telling Chase csr that only reason I opened with WaMu was so I could close without going into a branch because they have none in my state. Had no problem getting a $99,500 CD transfered into Chase checking within minutes of call. Best advice is to wait till day of maturity to call
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #42
NOTARIZATION is an issue. I have a WaMu CD maturing Sept. 16. I called in two weeks ago to find out about closing it to my checking account. I was told I could do that by phone ONLY if the amount is $50,000 or less.

If the amount is over $50,000, they will require that you mailing a notarized letter or instruction -- something you really don't want to find out about on the day of maturity! AND, I believe this is something that Chase added -- I don't think this was part of the terms of the CD when I opened it.

Fortunately, I live near a branch so can just go in and do the transfer in person.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #43
to above poster, this has already been discussed.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #44
I went into my local Chase branch (recently converted from WAMU) on Saturday to get the money from my 3 recently matured 5% CD's (each approx $100K - renewal at 0.2%). Since it was a Saturday they said the money would not be in my WAMU Checking until Tuesday (after Labor Day). So I thought I was smart and requested Cashier's Checks. Went to deposit them at my local Wachovia branch today to find out they are no better than a personal check. Wachovia slapped a 5 day hold on 100% of the money. Would not even give me $100 of the over $300K !!! I even talked to the branch manager. The branch manager said it was because of the routing number on the check. This is the same branch that does not put a hold on $50K personal checks when I deposit them!!! I guess the next CD I close out I will have to request CASH !!! All $300K !!!
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #45
hi all,

could be naive Q.
to where you are moving the money from wamu CD?
What's current good options for under $50k for 6-12 months term.
thanks.
SM
SM (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #46
I had one of them maturing yesterday, and I called yesterday to close it, and the rep said it would be done by today. Today the CD status was changed to "renewed" and no transfer happened. So I called again and spoke to about 6 different people, which in turn told me that:
1. The can't close it for some reason.
2. They actually did close it but somehow it didn't work.
3. They have no idea why I was transferred here and they don't deal with CDs at all.
4. I can't close it without the penalty, since it was already renewed.
5. They definitely can close it and will close it right now.
6. They already received my request to close it yesterday but somehow it didn't get to the backoffice and will be done tomorrow.

On the way of this entertaining run-around I was also disconnected twice, and got to speak to some guy that I couldn't hear at all because line quality was awful (not my line, as I could hear other guys just fine).

So far I still don't have the money, let's hope they'd really have it tomorrow. In the meantime, I would probably try to stay away from Wamu customer service in a foreseeable future.
john
john (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #47
SM - you had 35 days PRIOR to maturity date to instruct them to do what you wanted.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #48
My first WaMu 25k CD matures in 20 days. I called the WaMu customer service at 1-800-788-7000. It didn't go well.

I explained I wanted to have my cd closed at maturity, within a min the first rep needed to transfer me to the "CD Department".

The second rep verified my account information (name/account number/date of birth/SSN)... confirmed which CD we were talking about. Then he needed to do "additional identity verification", where he asked questions from my credit reports or public records.

These are five option multiple choice questions. The first two easy/about addresses I had previously lived at (what city is a street address in and what street address did I live at).

The third question was impossible they
asked how old is another person I should know... the problem is there are *three* different people with the same name who are related (mother and two aunts). While you might think that my mother would be the obvious answer, that was her married name for a few years but she wouldn't have used that name in several decades. Even if I knew which one they meant I haven't had contact with any of them in a decade, and I didn't know them well enough to answer.

I explained the issue, answered the multiple choice option which correct "I'm not familiar with that person", then asked for another question that doesn't involve this family member's name.

The fourth question was where does the
same family member live. I used the "I'm not familiar", asked for a question that didn't use that person and was told that I failed the identify verification and the close at maturity request would not be processed.

I waited on hold 15 mins, and spoke to a supervisor for 20 about this... it's bank policy to ask these questions even if they can't be answered they are required by the phone banking service.

There are three ways to instruct the bank to close the CDs at maturity:
- over the phone 35 days before
- by notarized letter
- in person at a branch *after* maturity

The in person branches are "not allowed" to enter close out instructions for future dates.

They would not allow me to visit a branch to verify my ID and then call the call center from there.

They would not generate new questions
that don't involve the ambiguous name.

They would not allow no way to setup an alternative identity verification password or "shared secret" for my account so that I could bypass this step in the future.

If I do phone banking in the future I should expect to be asked the same questions there is no way to instruct WaMu to not ask about this family member.

I was told that both Chase and WaMu used the same verification questions from the same source before the merger.

The support supervisor told me that bank policy prevents her from telling me what data provider's report supplied the data these questions come from. Other than saying it was from my credit reports and "other public records".

I understand that I just had a bit of bad luck here with these questions...
if they had asked different questions
there would have been no problem. It very annoying they couldn't bypass this system or skip certain questions.

She would forward my issue to "upper management" but I would not hear back.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #49
i think they have lost more customers because they are so cheap and incompetent. i wonder how these people at these banks get jobs. amazing!

and then, i love how they offer $100 to open an account with them to gain new customers. doesnt any bank know how to provide quality service anymore?
M
M (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #50
Gosh, how do you get Chase to do the ACH transfer so quickly? The ACH pushes I initiated yesterday 9/11 said they couldn't possibly do it before 9/16 as it takes them that long to prepare it! And you can't initiate the push until your account balance is large enough to cover the amount of the push you want to do. I don't keep a WaMu checking account balance high enough to cover the amount of the CD that is maturing! I am going to miss my 5% CD!
Alexander
Alexander (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #51
I had a major problem with closing a CD at Citi. They pretended not to receive my fax request to close account, refused to transfer money electronically, to wire or to fedex the check at my expense. As the result, I've lost 10 days of 4%interest on 100K. I filed a complaint with Federal and Texas authorities (for some reasons, I was referred to Texas), and my complaint was ignored.
Clint25
Clint25 (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #52
Anybody else have an incorrect end balance when the CD matured? Or is my math incorrect? Rate 4.89%, APY 5%, 12 months, $10,000 = end balance of $10,500.11. Their calculation lists $5.25 less.

Asked repeatedly how they came up with their amount with this rate information. Could not explain.
Spent over half an hour on phone talking with four different people. One did admit that the math was incorrect, but did not know what to do about it. Research department is suppose to call me back within 24 hours.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #53
I called the 1-800-788-7000 # and after they gave me the 1-866-322-8325 # because my AZ had not been converted to Chase yet. I called the second # 3 times. Each time I was placed on a 3 minute hold because they were dealing with other customers. After about one minute an automated message asked me to press 9 for a customer survey or hang up. For two of them I didn't do either and was disconnected. For the third one I began the customer survey and then I hung up. I got another # from someone and got through and the customer service rep told me next time I should call 1-800-935-9935 and apologized with the problems I had had.
ctgottapee
ctgottapee (anonymous)   |     |   Comment #54
i was able to easily close the CD over the phone. the rep was polite and it went quickly. i don't have a chase checking so i requested a check as wire fees were more than interest lost on ten days at current rates. well the check took 19 days to make it here. at first i was angry, and then i was just happy it showed up at all.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #55
I closed out a matured wamu cd.Had a terrible time trying to get a replacement check for one that was lost in the mail from wamu/chase.Kept my funds for three months before they would reissue check.Never seen so many inept people at one bank.
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #56
I just came from Chase after trying to withdraw my 5% WAMU CD that came due in October.
After about an hour spent with a bank manager arguing over whether I received notification of the automatic re-enrollment, they refused to override the penalty, despite having the option to do so. The also could not show me any documentation that I had agreed to this, and they could not confirm that I was notified. I received no email or postal notification of my options. After years and years of dealing with Chase's fees and regulations, their refusal to work with me was the last straw. I paid the $342 penalty, then I closed all six of my Chase personal and business accounts. Their inflexibility over a $342 fee cost them just over $200,000. Way to do business, Chase!
Anonymous
Anonymous   |     |   Comment #57
I want to second much of what was written here. I too have had a nightmarish experience trying to retrieve my $50k+ from a WaMu CD that just matured. It's been a farce.

First Chase said I could transfer the $ electronically over the phone to my Chase checking account. Then they said I couldn't do that, because my CD was with a WaMu branch that had not yet fully merged with Chase. They said my only options were to come into a branch (impossible, as I'm in Massachusetts, where there are no Chase branches) or to send a notarized letter requesting that a check be mailed to me. They said it was impossible to do an ACH or wire transfer.

I have now sent two notarized letters. Chase claimed not to have received the first letter. After the second letter, they claimed they did mail a check, but I just learned that they sent it to an incorrect address! I am now asking Chase to cancel the misdirected check and do the electronic transfer to my checking that they had originally promised. The CSR said she would try to do this. I'm still waiting to hear back.

Given much of what's been written here, Chase is clearly incompetent, but I wonder if there's something more going on. Are they intentionally making it difficult (through their policies and actions) for people to withdraw funds from CD's?

I am submitting a formal complaint to the Comptroller of the Currency (www.helpwithmybank.gov) and would encourage others to do the same. There is a pattern here that regulators should know about.
Tarina Gonzales
Tarina Gonzales   |     |   Comment #58
My daughter turns 18 today and she has a CD trust them to Washington Mutual but I can't find it